I thought maybe it would be relevant to say right out of the gate. Like why is it important to have conversations around trauma in the body? For me, trauma in the body, where it is stored is like a roadmap. I am able to go back and associate the different parts of my body that are talking to me, where I have aches and pains and just build up over sustained stress over time. If I can go back and acknowledge and give compassion to that part in that memory, then I can rewrite my future moving forward. So it's really important to know where we came from so we can address it and really rewrite going forward. That makes sense. I, I don't know if it's because our society is so fast paced and moving that we just forget this intrinsic existence of mind body connection and leave the body behind. And that, like our body stores so much for us and so much to keep us safe. And it's affected by life in such a dynamic way. We think, oh, my brain, like I'm existing, I'm fine. So I'll just keep moving on, when in fact, like the body is just storing all of this. And why do you think it's so easy for us to forget that? I think we are in a society of human doing, and we have forgotten how to just be a human being. That is, our sole purpose is just to be and experience and go through this life. Yeah, in society we are pressured to always be going, always be producing, always manufacturing. Something we're never told just to slow down and reset and just be. And that is a huge pressure I've felt. And I know a lot of people I've talked to us have felt, but it's really comparison to just we need to be human beings. Yeah. And we don't have the environment. I think that encourages that. And therefore we push on and move on and I don't, I don't know, acknowledge, realize that the body hasn't. And in fact, it in some ways can even start holding on tighter because of that allostatic load. So before going on, I think it's really important that we all start on the same page and talk about what exactly is trauma, because it is brought up so much. Like you go through Instagram, you can barely pass something that's about, oh, trauma, this trauma that, and it can be such a trigger word, for previous generations who just say, like, yeah, you all think trauma is anything, but it's it's so important to acknowledge what it exactly is because then we can just come at it from a more like, pragmatic angle, like we're not trying to overdramatize size anything. We're just trying to heal and resolve so that we can move on and truly show up the way that we want to. You're right. And the first step is awareness. And according to the Psych Institute, the definition of trauma is anything that overwhelms our nervous system's ability to cope in the present environment, whether that is experiencing a traumatic event or witnessing it. It has the capacity to store in our imprint in our body, both physically and mentally. And it's a sliding scale. So trauma is not linear. It affects everybody differently. It's about the human experience. You can have two firefighters responding to the same critical incident. One walks away just fine, whereas the other person walks away and have nightmares and flashbacks. It's all about the response and their body. It's not about weakness or anything else, it's about their response. And I think it's so important. Also to clarify that we're all different because we do have different experiences. So the one person who walks away, fine, maybe there was nothing in that event that their body actually remembered, and so they're fine. But for this other firefighter, there are things that the body remembered. And so it's not just simply responding to that call, it's responding to the things that were in the past and in the background and and so this is why, like, you know, between first responders like, oh, yeah. A really bad call for me would be this or a really bad call for me would be this. I remember, I remember, when I was an EMT, like, just getting into. And I was working for Amr and, you know, trying to be the is like, no, something EMT and I walked into this, we went on a someone on hospice, and the caregiver had given them too much pain medication. And so their blood pressure was, like, super low. But it was clear, like, we could not do anything because this person was on hospice. But what got me was when all the family members started showing up, all the siblings there were like seven of them, all older, all start crying. Oh mom, it was their mom. And they were so emotional because like, it was clear their mom was was dying. And like, even though she was on hospice, they weren't prepared for it. And I noticed myself going into this space of like imagining myself as one of those siblings and what I would do if that was my mom. And I got so emotional, and I think, like for me, because my mom is such a dear and special person to me, like, that was, micro trigger and I had to, like, take a deep breath, you know, say like, this is, this is not my emergency. This is not my story, you know, and send them love. But those the the people that I was with, they didn't respond that way at all. But we have different stories. I think another thing that we have to remember is, like, we're not trying to, we're not trying to make something bigger than it is and also acknowledge that trauma is a big deal. But that said, it's not a bad day. It's not a rough season. It's really when there were these there are events or core memories that in which we we can't we don't have the resources to move on from that. And so when we're looking back at a rough day versus, you know, a core memory, how do you correlate the difference between those two? It's interesting, the example you gave, because I can see the similarities in having so many siblings showing up to see their mom and that be in that last couple days and those time together. For me, that would have been a different experience because I didn't have a big family and siblings. So for me, I would see that I would feel really good in that situation because she has so much family surrounding her. And how peaceful of a way to go out. Interesting. So it's different our nervous systems, because I grew up in a really troubled home. My mom was in and out of prison and we don't have that connection. Yeah, so for me, I look at it and I see the blessings all around me. And so like just in that example, right, there were two different humans, two different experiences coming into this. And you look at that experience and that, you know, someday in the future, like that is what it's going to look like. You and your brothers and sisters are so close. You're all going to be there for me. It's not going to look like that. So I don't have that association. Yeah. So it just goes to show it's all about our origination and where we came from. That fascinating. Yeah. It's amazing. And for me, I didn't know how bothered I was by the situation until I started tearing up until I started like getting that sense of overwhelm and like, emotionality. But that also came from my body. That's your emotional part of your body, not your logic brain. Yes. Because logically we're not in that situation. We're in on that environment, but our body recognizes it and it's like a overused machine. It has that memory to it. So it's going to have that muscle memory. And so trauma is going to bring up that muscle memory again. That's going to resurface every single time it's activated by memory. Whether we logically understand or not, it's our bodies are going to happen. That's how it's wired to keep functioning. Yeah. And it's it's stored there. So recognizing that like we can't logic our way out of those corner traumatic memories, experiences, it it just needs to be processed. It needs to be supported. I, like I said, it needs to be processed. Yes. Because I have gone about it. Just pushing it down. Oh, this is coming up. I'm going to push it down, ignore it and power through. And what you said about processing it is huge, because it allows the complete circle of the system for any activated how it responds in your body and then letting it go. Why do you think that we take that pressure on ourselves to just stuff it down, push through? I think for me, a lot of it comes from being a female in the trades. I feel like I have this added pressure to not be sensitive, to not be emotional, to not be anything that a stereotypical woman is. Because what I'm doing is coming to a position as a firefighter, and I'm not supposed to bring my identity or my sex to it, right? I'm just a firefighter. Well, I'm a human in a firefighter role. You can't take away my humanism. Emotions are not as they're everybody has emotions. So why are we suppressing them and not just allowing them to go through its complete cycle? How God intended us to use our emotions and cycle through. Let's let that process complete and stop interrupting it and furthering our recovery. I mean, it can be years before it comes up again, but when you're activated, it's going to be the same exact response, whether it's now, today or tomorrow or ten years from now. One of my therapist said, things come up to come out. Yeah. And so instead of, you know, if things keep, what is it we things that we resist persist. Yes they do. I love that quote. Yeah. Because it gives us that encouragement of like, hey, you don't like this feeling. Let's like, just feel into it, let it come up and let it go. Otherwise you're going to keep feeling it. Yeah. Well I carbonation in a bottle. You got to open it asserts a carbonate and have all that pressure. You have to open that cap to let the pressure out. It's just like trauma. We keep living, so we keep experiencing. And our tank, our vessel, our body keeps filling up and pressurizing. We have to let go of some of that pressure and that trauma. Yeah that totally makes sense. We're going to pause here. No no no you don't I mean you don't have to keep it rolling. We're keeping it. She had a podcaster who said if you like make a motion for a stop. It makes it easier for you when you're going through like cutting things out. So somatic memory and poly vagal theory, we can go into that. Getting your gear stuck. I think that that one's a really key one that I like. Now on the dorsal vagal, and then the difference between trauma and stress. I love that transmission. Analogy of stress kicks into high gear when needed. And backed down when we're safe, but trauma keeps us stuck in that one gear. And then these. Yeah, trauma is not what happens to you, but what happens inside you as a result of what happens to you, which is really important because then we don't minimize we don't minimize the impact in any way that so often we do. Okay. So ready. We're going now, that said, the idea that trauma gets stored in the body and that the body remembers all these details, maybe we can set up for like, how that happens with the nervous system states. So what what are those states can you describe for us, like when we're safe, what does that feel like and what is our body doing versus when we are upregulated? I think the easiest one to start with, because we can all relate as women in this field, is your sympathetic system, your fight or flight where you have that super power, your body is passing through more blood and you have higher blood flow. Your your, blood vessels are dilating, your heart is beating faster. You actually create a anti-inflammatory in your body that will help you to repair any damages you get, as if you're in a fight. And then you have your opposite end of that where you have parasympathetic mode, which is complete, almost shut down, where it's like your body's relaxed and rest and your rest and digest to where you're safe, and you can actually shut down and rest your eyes and rest, and your body can get restoration. Yes. And repair. And then you have your baseline, which is where you're maintaining the most self led responses. So you can come from a place of respond instead of reacting. Reacting is way more sympathetic. And it's coming to that. We have to fix this or we're going to die. It's life or death situation. It's the emotional, amygdala state of our brain. Exactly. Yep. And the closer we can come to our baseline where we're functioning, then the less practices we have to do to actually rest and digest versus if we're turned on really high and our systems going, we have to do these in a little bit more intentional practices to bring ourselves down, because it's just like a pendulum. If you're so far on one side, you need a lot more to get to the other side. And versus if you're just sitting in the middle, it's not going to take as much to turn it on and accelerate when you need, or slow down when you don't need. Yeah. And the idea of so many first responders going into burnout, like what happens with burnout in the nervous system, burnout is when your system completely collapses. It is a dorsal vagal response where it collapse. So this is when you, almost like a child, would throw a tantrum. This is a very good illustration of a dorsal vagal response where everything is shut down. They feel hopeless. The tears are coming. You can't think clearly. You actually have brain fog in your body is so overwhelmed with chemicals that and hormones that you can't think clearly enough to react. So you come to this point where you just shut down, you can't run, you can't fight or flight freeze. You're absolutely stuck in that moment. And I've been there. It feels like the end of the world really does. It really does. But like anything, it's a wave, right? It waves, crests and then it washes back from the shore. It can only last so long. So even though it feels like it's going to last forever and it's crushing the end of the world, if we sit in that pain and we allow our bodies to fully process and let all of the tears and everything pass through and complete its process, then we actually feel better and we can start swinging the other direction again. Now, I've heard that with trauma, part of the issue that happens with the nervous system specifically is that it doesn't. The trauma doesn't allow us to complete the normal, stress response. So do you have, an an analogy, like a way that you visualize this that helps that make more sense? Yeah. Kind of like the brake analogy and the accelerator. Imagine driving a car. Well, you can't jump in a car and just floor it and drive wherever you want. You cannot rev up your engine that loud that much and wear and tear on your mechanism, and your body is going to be too much. So it's just like driving a car. Sometimes you need to get up and go and you need to speed up to pass somebody or get out of it into a safe environment. But on the other token, you need to be able to slow down so you don't rear end. Somebody crashed into a wall and your car just cannot be running at six gear all the time. I mean, it's just going to fall apart and wear down. Well, our body is exact same. It's the vessel in which it carries us. Before we started talking, you were describing me. This idea of a circuit. Yeah. It's. So our body is made up of a million different pathways, and it's all runs through our fascia, which is like Saran wrap that holds our whole body together. It runs from the tip of your toes all the way to the top of your head. And let's say you never told that pain signal runs through a highway all the way through your entire body, up to your brain where you register. Oh that hurt. Well, imagine if and then you get super angry. Super. Yes. Many hobble around. Imagine if that traumatic event happens. It's like shorts your body to where it can't process and cope to what is going on in the environment. So it gets stuck. So now the next time you have that pain signal or receptor and it tries to go on that same highway along that fascia, it hits that that spot that was stuck before. And it's like a roadblock. And so now it has to take a detour and go around it to complete its cycle so that you can register in your brain that you stub your toe. So imagine driving your highway from tip your toe up to your brain and you come across this roadblock and you got to stress. We learn to cope and how to drive in those situations to keep going. However, sometimes, just like in traffic, people are everywhere. There's blocks ever, right? You got to slow down and it's inevitable. But the difference with trauma is that we can get the gear stuck. Yes, we can get the gear stuck and then we can no longer accelerate. We have to actually slow down, put it in park and take it to the shop to get repair. Right. Just like we would, tune up on our brain. I compared it to, like, an oil change. Just like you would do an oil change on your car for maintenance. You need to have that oil change in your brain and go to therapy, or confide in a friend or someone you're close with and you trust to discuss whatever gear you're stuck in. Let's dump that out. Just like we would take our car for a tuneup so we can be functioning as we're supposed to. Yeah, that makes so much sense. That visual. I love the body. Keeps the score. I think it took me a year to get through that book, finally. But when I did, I was like, oh my gosh, this is so great. And I love, his quote that trauma is not the story of something that happened back then. It's the current imprint of that pain on my mind, brain and body. So, like, it is still there. It makes me think of I heard this once. I can't remember where from, but when you are remembering a childhood memory, a lot of the times you're remembering the memory of it, so you're not actually remembering the moment and when it happened, your remembering the last time you thought about it. So it's like the short little memory that pops up in your head of when you're three years old and you're holding that bike while you're actually remembering the photo of you holding that bike and you're all excited. It's your third birthday. We don't actually have that memory in our logical brain yet, so we're remembering that photo of a memory. Oh, that's really interesting. And speaking of memories, like this idea that we these, these memories being stored in our body is what our body is responding to. Like we said earlier with when we go on, I mean, it isn't even necessarily need to be something traumatic, like in my example. But it could be the relationship between. So my story, the oldest daughter and her mother, and she was calling the other siblings to get there. Or it could be you smell the Cologne, that that smelled very similar to someone who was close to you and passed, in a tragic way. Like all of our senses have these, for lack of a better word, like stories that are associated. And so it can bring us back to, back to those places. So then in our mind, we're like, oh, I'm fine, but the memories have so much information that are stored from our senses. They can be these little triggers that that continue throughout the course of our life. And so when we have this big explosion over, you know, something small that happens with our spouse, well, we're not we're not exploding in that situation. We're exploding because of the, like, putting our fingers in this infected wound. That's actually what we're responding to. And makes me think of this little clip I saw on YouTube where it's not about the nail. This gal has a, pretend nail sticking out of her forehead, and they talk about she's complaining she has a headache and she's snagging all her sweaters, and the guy's trying to say, well, maybe it's about the nail. We don't have to put this, but maybe it's about the nail. It makes me think of that. We don't need to. That. I'm sorry. I go on a tangent, that's all. Oh, good. But. Oh, God, I am doing okay. That one thing that came up in my therapy recently that I have a lot of awareness around is I grew up in hoarder conditions and my biological mother's house, and she, having been a drug addict and people in and out of the home all the time. Now, fast forward 20 years. I'm a firefighter and I'm responding to border conditions all the time. Low income houses, really dirty conditions in which children are living. And Wolf, for me, this is affecting my nervous system every single call because it remembers what it was like to live in that. So although logically I don't live in that anymore. You know, I have a house, I have a career. I'm 20 years past that memory. My body doesn't understand. It's on a timeline that trauma is not linear. It's just stored in there. So it takes me back as if I'm a child coming into my home. So now fast forward 15 year career. Think of all the homes I've been in and all the triggering that I've had. And of course, what did I do? I just stuffed it down as soon as I'd be irritable in this. Oh well, I just need a nap. Well, what I needed was to tell somebody, hey, you know, walking into that house today made me feel like my childhood home. Maybe if I just said those simple words and shared what emotion was going on, I wouldn't have had this long time where my pressure canister was overflowed and then complete explosion, dorsal vagal collapse. You know, I had a breakdown. And what's interesting about that is you had an awareness around that. But even when you don't have an awareness around it, it still impacts your nervous system. So this is why, again, we can go have a shift that seems like it's low stress strain and go home and just be wiped out because in the background, our body is still going through all of this. It's just without our awareness. But it it will it will bring fatigue and like hardship to the body. And that's why, like you said, it starts with awareness. And the more aware we can become, the more we can also give those supports. And secondary trauma is a really interesting thing too, because, in some ways I find it like a little bit more nuanced, right? Like it's like secondhand smoke where we're not the one smoking. So we're not I think it's a lot harder to be deliberate about adding support because it's not quote unquote, happening to us, but in fact, like, there's a lot of research out there that secondary trauma can be almost just as impactful as trauma to us. I think it's I think part of it is because we're intended to be so connected as humans and so supportive of one another. I think that's partially why, like, soldiers go out and they're in battle and they see this horrible things when they come back with PTSD or PTSD. And even though, like, maybe they weren't blown up, maybe they weren't shot, but because their bodies were, that still imprints in their nervous system and, so it's extremely relevant to first responders because we have we have what the statistic is like 3 to 600 secondary traumas that we'll see in the course of a 2025 year career. And that is that is significantly far and above what the average civilian goes through. I think the average civilian goes through three to maybe seven traumatic events in their entire life, compared to the 300 to 600, like you mentioned. And even though their secondary trauma is like I would say, the average person still doesn't get near that with secondary trauma like me. I mean, not not the same way shift workers would write absolutely well, and the statistics show it. So we see an increase in that 30% of first responders actually report post-traumatic stress injuries or having some kind of stress from the job. That's 30% of workers out there that those are the ones who have an awareness and reported it, and they reported it. Think of the number of firefighters that have a bad day and they just respond, oh, I'm fine. You know how many people don't report this or actually talk about it? I bet I beg to differ. I think the it's got to be 50% of people, if not more, at some point in their career. I mean, 300 to 600 traumatic calls. The odds are not in our favor. It's so interesting to me too, the shame around like witness to trauma too, because since it didn't happen to you, like, you know, in our logic brain, like we should be fine. Yeah, we're not entitled to our emotions around it. We aren't allowed to feel anything towards it because it didn't happen to us. And so therefore we we should be fine. I just saw something on Instagram, with September 7th pride month, there's all this people are starting to share, right. So the the background of their stories and, there was one first responder who said that, like, they just kept telling themselves the story, that they were okay, because otherwise it just felt he felt like shame and guilt that, well, nothing bad has happened to me. So why do I feel this way? I shouldn't, like we said the other day, like we shouldn't shut on ourselves. Yeah, we don't sit on yourself. And it's so easy for us to fall into that, into that because we're like, we don't have cups, we're not bleeding. You know? We're not impaled by something. Nobody close to us. It's not happening to them. But just the fact that it's we are humans and we are witnessing humans together in this life that that is, the impact of that is so hard on our nervous system. Well, imagine the analogy of somebody smoking a cigaret. Somebody lights a cigaret, and they're the one that takes a drag and they inhale and that toxic effect on their body. But the secondary smoke and the exhalation of the smoke and the chemicals that come out affect anyone who is close by them. This is the same, a trauma. Just because somebody else is experiencing the trauma, it's still not something that's common in everyday life. So it doesn't make sense and it overwhelms our body's ability to understand because we talked about the studies and whatnot. But we never talked about it. Oh I didn't know anything about it okay. We can skip that second. Again I think we said the relevant ones, so etc.. Maybe, maybe before we go into the takeaway, we can just touch on, that it is like it's scary to start this process, like becoming aware of how our body is reacting, what thoughts are going through our head. Looking back, and what we can do or maybe what things we can have in place as support before we, like, jump into that. So, like, if you're going through a really stressful time in your life, maybe. Probably not. The time is probably not the time to focus on your trauma. That's kind of also, it might the stressful time might actually be poking at those traumas. So like but but that's exactly what I mean. Like have be in a, in a good place like, as much as possible, maybe not even being in my one hour a week. Come back the next week. I've been trying all the motions, doing all the things, but I could never get in a place to where my life is stable enough to go back and then let the weeds of the trauma. In the past, because I had so much stress going on. But I'd love to see it because so many of us are like that. But let's not take it to the collapse. Like where can we build some supports in our system, whether it's one hour a week to get a massage, you know, that's a great place to start. Just got to get to the point to where we are, you know, we're not waiting for an activated moment to say, hey, I need to go see my therapist, but actually getting there. We got to be proactive, not reactive. Yes. And there's a lot of tools for that. But for now, I love this, and I love the analogy of allostatic load. And so maybe we can do a brief overview of all of the concepts that we talked about, to give people a kind of like a mental checklist of what those concepts were so that they can go do their own research and they can go down their own rabbit hole. And I love that idea, because for me, I had no idea about any of this. I've just been pushing through, pushing through, trying to get to the end of the line, and just trying to keep moving forward in my career as a female in the trades, in my personal life with my family. I've just always been pushing, and it wasn't until I had my huge breakdown a year ago that I, I stopped and I said, you know, I think I need help. And I think I need to explore what it is that my body is trying to communicate to me, because it's been talking to me for years with aches and pains and discomfort and this sense of just like, overwhelm, you know, and I'm pushing through, and I'm fine. I'm just a little stressed. I'm fine. I'm just a little stressed. Well, no, my body was giving me warnings, and I wasn't listening. And so I'm hoping that, this podcast for everyone out there that you're listening to the warnings and that you take the steps now instead of waiting until the full dorsal vagal collapse, which is, you know, it's just never a good time. Yeah. I mean, if you're like me, I, I would actually have to get a little bit uncomfortable to make a change. So it's fine. It's totally fine to wait for that moment, but not to wait for that moment and not change. Yeah. So when you, when you are ready to make a change and you're at that point where you can't be uncomfortable anymore, just know there is hope on the other side. I love that there is hope on the other side. And I love that we can talk about this in a very practical way that is empowering, that gives people like real tools and understanding of what's happening because it is, it is the invisible kind of injury. It's an invisible injury. Yes. I like that. Yes. Well, thank you so much for having me. This has been an amazing conversation. I'm so glad. I am so glad that we have this space to have this conversation, and I look forward to doing the next one. Yeah. I am stoked for the next one. So thank you for being on the podcast, and we'll see you next week. Well, thank you so much. I am so glad we're doing this. It's going to be so great, and for everyone who's listening, please take care of yourself. Please listen to your body and just be proactive. That's the main takeaway is be proactive. Yeah, don't wait for that breakdown. I'm so excited for the next one. So we need to make sure we talk about the three things. We need to talk about the inner work. We need to talk about, the polyvagal theory. And we need to talk about the physical body. Yes, and how it's stored. Yes, and for those of you who want to do some research, we did touch on the poly vagal theory. We did talk about sympathetic, parasympathetic, and dorsal vagal responses. We talked about allostatic load. And we talked about emotional regulation and how to complete that cycle. I think all of those are really great jumping off points for people who want to like dive deeper into this. We also, also we touched on the difference between primary and secondary trauma. And how trauma is stored in the body, as well as the definition of trauma. Yes, I feel like we got a lot done in this one, so I'm excited. Yes. Well, thank you so much. I will talk to you next time. Bye. Bye. She did the same motion. Why did she do that? Oh, man. That's all. That's all for the podcast today, you know, that's what I said. I told him I was doing this podcast, and he's like, oh, I love podcast. My daughter does a podcast. What's it called? And I told him. And then he's like, oh, I don't listen to podcast. I'm just supporting my daughter. Like he said, he doesn't listen to podcast. Yeah, because he's an old man and doesn't know how to work his phone. You can tell him. I'm going to tell him. Hey. You know, my dad's like, I don't know how to work my phone. Like, I got my granddaughter to set it up. They're so cute, and they're so supportive. I think that's why, in my past, I'm like, my mom's not supportive, so I don't have to support anyone. It's just this whole circular thing. Yeah. Well, I think this whole thing is all about how to heal ourselves, so we can support others. Because we can't pour from an empty cup. We need to fill up our own cup. Then we can pour to others. Yes, and just give them some grace. Just give them some grace. That's a good one. Yes. I'm ready for the next one. I'm excited, too. It's going to be fun. Yeah. I was telling my husband, I'm like, I'm doing a podcast with my friend. He's like, oh, great. And I told my mom, I'm doing a podcast. And she's like, oh, I love that. That's good. What's it called? And I told her, and she said, you know, I will listen to it, but I don't know if I can. I said, you know what? You are supportive enough. You are here enough. And she said, I don't listen to podcast, but you're my daughter, so I will support you. I love that. Yes. It's all about support. I just got an image in my mind, like, when someone's in dorsal vagal collapse and crying and in hysteria, we don't tend to have a lot of sympathy for them because we don't understand what's going on, and it's actually creating a response in our own body that we don't like. We don't want to be uncomfortable, so we almost want to like, block and not see it and not acknowledge it versus you have a broken bone. Everybody's going to be right there calling 911, giving you support. You know, what do you need? It's it's it's so interesting how that works. Yeah. I am really stoked for our next podcast because this has this conversation has really brought up that next step of like building that relationship with your body. And you and I have both been on each our own, wild and involved journeys of building a relationship with our bodies. And, the I think it'll be really fun to talk about, as we have done that, we have actually gone through this inner landscape of ourselves and like, actually been able to peel back layers to accessing and showing up and being our true full selves in a way that we didn't even think was possible before. Yeah, I love that I can show up more authentic now. It is beautiful and I'm looking forward to the next episode just to share more practical ways of how. And so we've talked about the why and what.
